Episode 140 - Healing Through Seduction: An Intimate Interview With Perle Noire
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Mary
00:03
So the first time that I encountered Pearl was at the New York Burlesque Festival years ago, probably, like I don't know 2012. And I remember you came out on stage and I don't remember literally anything else from that night. Like I don't remember who I was with, I don't remember what I was wearing, but I remember you coming out on stage and I think you were wearing like a lime green ensemble.
00:33
Mm-hmm, it was some color that had like total pow and I just like you know I mean obviously the podcast is called Come to your Senses Like I lost control of my senses, it was like I was having a transformative transportative experience. Thank you, thank you, and that's something that I just so admire of you as a performer, but also in how you show up in the world is as someone who carries such a dynamic sense of presence that everything else is just kind of this accessory to your divinity.
Perle
01:16
Yes, yes. And during the time where I decided that white men in burlesque, that the high school bullies, that the family bullies, were not going to tell me that, as a dark-skinned black woman, I could not embody what they call classic glamour. I can't wear red lipstick, I can't put on a gown. If I'm performing burlesque, I am limited to a tribal act, I'm limited to only doing high energy because I'm the black one. No, no black women, you know? Indigenous people, African people. In my opinion, we are responsible for what makes burlesque great. Talk about corsets. What kind of body were those women trying to mimic back in the day when they created those bustles and corsets? Let's talk about these beautiful fans and headdresses. Hello, indigenous people. Much you know. I'm not going to have these people tell me that I cannot embody something that my people created, and anyone who has been popular in this art form is embodying a black woman or an indigenous woman or an ethnic woman.
02:32
And so when I decided to do these traditional glamour acts, it was me taking my identity back and going to the girl who grew up putting on power suits while her cousins had on t-shirts. There's some pictures of me and my cousin sent me. We're like 10 or 11. I've got on a power suit, y'all with shoulder pads, and she dressed herself. I'm like I'm saying I'm saying tea and boardroom and my cousins are like girl what? And so I was made fun of my whole life because I wanted to embody glamour. And as a black woman in the South, it's like you can only be glamorous at church. You can only be glamorous when it's connected to your pain at a funeral. No, there's this line from the rapper I think his name is Jendaya where he says they say, jendaya, why you dress so classic? I don't want my best dressed day in a casket. So that's what you saw.
Mary
03:33
Yes, it's like what I saw and what I felt. You know, that's something that I think is just so unique to you, or at least that I feel is so unique to you as a performer, every time you come on stage. You know it's not an aesthetic experience, it's a full body experience, and your love and commitment to freedom and transformation is just so evident, like you embody it so beautifully through the way that you move and perform.
Perle
04:11
Thank you so much. Thanks for being open. Yeah. The ceremony that I was presented for y'all today.
Mary
04:19
Yes, and so you have helped over 4,000 survivors, women and femmes, reclaim their narrative through healing through burlesque and self-seduction. And where I'd love to begin is just with those words that I feel lay like a charm over my being healing through seduction, oh, healing through seduction.
Perle
04:50
Yes, yes.
Mary
04:52
Yes, so it's like I want to just fling the doors open for you to share anything you want to share about what that means to you and your experience with it.
Perle
05:03
I, first of all, I'm feeling so gagged because I actually need to update my bio it's definitely been over 5,000 this year and how I'm able to transform so many lives just because you know. I've been doing the online sessions since Myspace and Skype were thing y'all. Let me go ahead and age myself. Let me go ahead and do it. And the reason why the art of healing through seduction is so powerful is because one if you were like me and you grew up being told to take your hand off your hip. You grew up being told to cover your breasts because the family members might look or the people at church or society, you grew up being told that your body was dangerous. You grew up being told that your femininity could cause harm and if something happened to your body, if you seduced someone else with your young body, you seduced this older person. Now you have this toxic relationship to the idea of seduction, and it goes further. Because of now, you hate yourself and you choose partners that hate you. I'll say it again Now you hate yourself and you choose partners that hate you.
06:27
You find yourself seduced by the safety in others, so you don't trust yourself. You find yourself seduced in the idea of finding sanctuary and other people, or even religion or your cultural upbringing. You find the seduction of playing the role to finally be good enough. And so when you say I'm going to heal through seduction, you decide to seduce and romance yourself by retraining your mind, to speak kindly. You seduce yourself by trusting your intuition. You trust when you have the butterflies for yourself that you're waiting to have for other people. You trust your own ideas, you trust what you want. You honor your boundaries with yourself so it's easier for you to honor your boundaries with other people. So the seduction is reclaiming that autonomy over your body and burlesque is perfect for that, regardless if you are a professional or not. To the core, burlesque is about having full autonomy over your body and healing through storytelling.
07:39
We get seduced by those whispers in our ear. Why don't you whisper in your own ear, honey, seduce yourself, and that will heal you, in my opinion. Mmm, hmm, ugh, ugh.
Mary
07:55
I'm just going to play that every morning when I get out of bed. Yes. That is so. I love the reclamation of seduction, like that original fracture between someone's magnetism and the impact that that has on another person, being a cause for shame rather than a natural expression of power.
Perle
08:23
Absolutely. I definitely have always been who I am and as the 44 year old, I realized I'm like oh, you just always had magnetism. You always were powerful and the people around you, though they may have loved you, they didn't know how to love such a powerful being. You know, and chances might be that because they are powerful, being with silence, and that kept them safe, and so you know those around us, they do the best they can.
Mary
08:57
Mmm, hmm Well, and that's something you so inspire me about is the intersection of forgiveness and boundaries.
Perle
09:04
Yeah, oh, because back. Listen, let me tell y'all, a beautiful way to heal through seduction is to forgive without access. And so when we talk about boundary setting, we are all kind of taught the wrong definition of that. It's like you go in with anger, guns ablaze, and this, this is it, this is what I will and will not tolerate. No, honoring your boundaries has everything to do with you looking inward and changing your behavior, changing what you tolerate with yourself first. Then you think about other people. That's why things like self-consent is very important, and so when you give yourself that consent, for example, for me, I limit my time with my family, because there's always an issue with my body. I'm 44 now. They're still telling me to cover up, even though I wear purposely turtlenecks, almost, but my shape is still there. I'm like an E cup. I was like a D at 11. And it's like cover those things up. And so then my boundary is hi, family members, if you want to see me, do not speak about my body again.
10:15
So I'm going to give myself the consent and I forgive you, but you won't have access to me because you've already shown me that you won't honor when I implement a boundary, when I say this is harmful. So it's then up to me to no longer get the access, and that is me being a bigger person for my inner child, not for the person harming me.
Mary
10:42
And just watching you talk with your. So for those listening who aren't seeing a visual, there's these gorgeous flowers atop Pearl's head. There's a gorgeous red tunic and lips to match. And it's just Wednesday or Tuesday. No, it's Wednesday, it's one in the afternoon. And, like, what I love about that is the way that you possess powers of transformation and leadership in this unapologetically feminine, glamorous package Like it makes me trust you so deeply. Because I don't have to. I know I don't have to censor any part of myself to be strong or to be free.
Perle
11:30
That makes me feel so, so good, especially because there's the whole oh, you need to be real. I want someone who's gonna be real and vulnerable, and people equate that to someone looking busted in their presence, and I know for me, when I was in abusive relationships, that was the first thing they asked me to stop doing was dressing up.
11:53
And the manipulation was oh, you're trying to draw attention to yourself. If you love me, you stop wearing makeup, you put on jeans and, because of my conditioning, I accepted that and not realizing that I was being abused. In that that's manipulation. And then that's how it starts, and so being glamorous to all the people who are listening, who are like, but my authentic self is someone who wants to wear red lipstick, going to the grocery store if you're in New York, to the bodega, that is when you are yourself. That is you being open and vulnerable and real. You don't have to go online without brushing your teeth to be approachable and relatable.
Mary
12:40
Yes, like what's freedom? Right, because I know for myself. It's like it's been this real ping pong of like growing up super Catholic and pronouncing any resemblance of glamor or seduction and then swinging to the total opposite of spectrum and then finding right relationship of just the adornment of the temple of my soul.
13:08
And something that you've already mentioned but that I hear you talk a lot about is self-consent, and the first time you shared it it was like I don't even know what that means and I felt you move us through in one of your workshops. I felt you move us through this meditation in a body scan that was consent-based and it was so powerful and I wondered if you could share a little bit about just what that means and looks like.
Perle
13:36
Well, I definitely from my own experience as a survivor of sexual assault unfortunately most of us are and we don't want that victimhood. So we are like, but I'm gonna have a good sex life and I'm gonna have a partner, and it's like I will win, and it's like, but then we still go in there not realizing we're an adult now and we have say, and so then we find ourselves just being numb, even with the people we love, when we're trying to be intimate and we do what they want us to do. We wanna emulate what's on porn. We wanna do whatever we need to do to have the emotional surrogate say yes to us, to validate our existence, to tell us we're fine, we're not dirty, we are worthy. So let me spread myself open and let someone penetrate me before I'm ready. Just because you are wet doesn't mean you are ready. So you wanna get to the point to where you actually say, in the foreplay, in the intimacy, in the flirtation, even right then, and there, hey, go ahead and put the condom on. Or hey, go ahead and put those black gloves on for this finger band. You know, whatever you're doing y'all, but I wanna just do a nice little scan and it can be something done that's with the partner. You know you too can watch each other, ask your body for consent and, you know, caress your bodies in front of each other and I'm sure that will be arousing.
15:16
But there has to be a willingness for you to stop and take responsibility for your own safety Instead of the they triggered me, they harmed me. No, I'm not. No, listen, we would never take away from each other. But to get to the other side, for some of us it's going to require you to step into the space to where you're willing to be responsible for your own safety. You know, one of the things I also say in my workshops and my sessions is I cannot guarantee a safe space, but I can guarantee a safer space for you to have safety within yourself. Wow, I love that, you know, because we don't know what triggers each other At any time. I'll never forget when I realized I was never gonna say I provided a safe space again was from doing one of these rituals in a hand massage. The first time the woman did it, she loved it. The second time, she was triggered like nobody's business. You never know where it's stored.
16:29
And that is also why you have to do the self consent. There needs to be a check-in. I'm wet, but is my arm ready to be touched? Mm-hmm. Are my nipples ready to be touched? We have to start checking in. That's what I mean by the self-consent.
Mary
16:46
Yes.
Perle
16:47
Yes.
Mary
16:49
Mm-hmm, I feel like that is so um, like, when we talk about vulnerability, it's like that is that embodiment of vulnerability. You know, I feel like I've had so many sensual experiences that were just me riding an assembly line of what turn on is supposed to look like, you know. Same. And lately I've been having really fulfilling sensual experiences that, like you know, I like the. The orgasm is not even the memorable part.
Perle
17:32
That's beautiful.
Mary
17:33
You know like, where the goal, the pleasure, is secondary to the honesty and the vulnerability and the pace, where no part of myself has to leave in order for me to be here.
Perle
17:44
You know, absolutely. And you know I think there's fear, at least for me, I'll speak for myself. There was always fear of. You know you want this to be a good experience for the other person. So it's like, oh, I don't want to stop and might kill the mood. So you know quotations here. And then there's the fear too, that you will offend someone, and I'm here to tell you you will. But it is better to lose them than yourself.
18:11
Than to traumatize yourself as you are trying to return to your sensuality and sexuality, especially if you are a survivor.
Mary
18:21
Right, yes, yes, it's like if I dissociate, that will also kill the mood, like it's helpful for me to remember that, because that just wants me to keep going and keep going, for fear of being seen in my own tenderness.
Perle
18:41
Yes.
Mary
18:42
It's like it's. You know, it's been a 40-some year journey of learning that actually that part is not the trustworthy part and, like, the tender part is the most trustworthy part.
Perle
18:54
Absolutely, I agree.
Mary
18:56
And you know, before we started recording, I was talking about this idea that I feel sensuality, and this kind of sensuality that we're talking about, which is really just allowing your soul to be expressed through your senses, whether that's through a sexual encounter or the application of Ruby Woo red lipstick, whatever like that. It's really the cutting edge of self-development.
Perle
19:28
Yeah, I agree.
Mary
19:30
And so it sounds like that resonates with you and I'm curious your experience with that in having worked with so many people and seeing them transform, and seeing them transform in this very specific way.
Perle
19:45
It's really. First of all, there are many mornings I wake up I'm like girl, you are really rich, you are really. I am really living the most fulfilled life, because my work is watching people transform like this. My work involves witnessing people return to themselves, watching them say yes to themselves and then a week later saying I just made 30K in one day, the most I've ever made in my business. I just implemented a boundary with my mother, I just implemented a boundary with my husband and now we just have the best sex we've had in 10 years. And so I think that's the thing that people don't realize that prioritizing healing certain traumas, prioritizing connecting to the sensuality, healing from it, making the conscious decision to embody yourself, helps everywhere else as well. When we think about sensuality, it's connected to everything. It's connected to the creativity, it's connected to the sense of self, and I think we're ignoring it by design, and but for me it's connected to everything. So it's very powerful to witness someone say aha to themselves.
21:12
Not an idea but, saying aha, having an aha moment to their identity.
Mary
21:19
I think that that is a really beautiful distinction, because I've experienced that of like going to self development workshops and having insight after insight, after insight, and then going home and feeling so overwhelmed with all these mental insights that I should be able to implement. You know, like, wait a minute, I just understand transformative experience and what you're describing is not necessarily an insight, but it's a revelation of identity.
Perle
21:58
Yes.
Mary
21:59
Yes.
Perle
22:00
And acceptance. Yeah. I think that's where it comes from too. There's the acceptance of the identity.
Mary
22:07
Right, right, because more traditional self development, I feel like, is rearranging the boxes and, predefined, preifying the boxes of our identity.
Perle
22:17
Yes.
Mary
22:18
Whereas the sensual demands that move with and embody the truth of who we are.
Perle
22:24
When you are healing through seduction sorry to cut you off when you're healing through seduction, what I really focus on is the mirror. So, yes, come to me and like, oh, I want my husband and my wife, my girlfriend, you know. Oh, this, this, this job, this show, I'm like that's great, but it has to be after you see yourself in this mirror.
22:48
So when you are healing through seduction, when you have the inside of self once it's just for you, everything else will be in alignment. But if you are coming to rearrange yourself like you talked about for the partner, for the job, for the children, for the community you're still gonna be numb Cause you're gonna be performing, and that's why my classes work for people who are not performers. I actually have more non-performers and the performers who come know I have a strict rule that there is no performing here. I won't even let them ask me questions about performing. Right, my job is to make sure your sensuality is not performative. Whew yes.
Mary
23:40
Oh, I'm just letting that slide down my gullet. Yes, yes, I mean. For years and years I tried to be like just a Instagram internet sensation. Just kept coming up against roadblock after roadblock and finally my body was like you don't want that, like you're chasing something you don't even want, and that changed everything for me.
Perle
24:11
Come on, come on self-consent.
Mary
24:12
Yeah.
Perle
24:13
On the ring of boundaries. Yes, exactly, that's what it looks like. That was a beautiful real time example for anyone who's thinking what does that actually look like for me, right there?
Mary
24:23
Yeah, beautiful. Well, and on that topic of I love how you talked about how you have performers and non-performers in your classes, and I know that there are some listening who might be thinking I could never even buy a tube of red lipstick, I could never be like that. And for someone who might be aching on the inside for this work but feel so obstructed by their identity that they could never be like that, I'm curious just any words of wisdom or invitation you might offer to them.
Perle
25:05
Yes, absolutely. Sexiness is the embodiment of you living your truth. So maybe your truth is no lipstick at all, but it's dancing in your underwear when no one is looking. Maybe your truth is taking an extra 30 minutes in the bathroom to just sit there and teach the people in your life to honor your space. Maybe your definition of grammar goes back to the original definition, which is to cast a spell on yourself. So it's. I Just say more about that.
Mary
25:46
Yeah About the original definition of glamor.
Perle
25:49
So when I did my healing through seduction experience last year, I asked my daughter, basically LeBois, to really go into one of my principles, which is glamor is your birthright. And so she presented this beautiful glamor ritual and of course, she was like it's not about what we are wearing, but I want us to talk about the original definition, which meant to cast a spell to glamor yourself.
26:14
And so then I started thinking about things like the shows I'm gonna age myself again, y'all charmed and things like that, right, and it's like they glamor, you Like when you think about these old witch shows and talking about witchcraft and things like that, even if you don't believe in that. But they would use the words like glamor, they glamored or they shimmered me and I think in true blood they said shimmered. It's like, oh, it's to cast a spell, and so when I think of you casting a spell on yourself, I think of you being in a trans and a euphoric sense, in an orgasmic state of a willingness that's uninhibited, a willingness that isn't calculated. There's a freedom when you have a spell on yourself, and so I think that's what it's about.
27:05
It's really just seeing what you feel more than what you see. So, yes, I've got the flowers, I'm wearing the red lipstick to go to the bodega down the street, but that's because of how it makes me feel, and so, when you're coming to work with people like us, that's what we want you to do. We want you to trust what you feel, and once you trust how good you feel, maybe your wardrobe will change. Maybe it won't, but you'll change how often you trust how you feel. That's what it is for me Beautiful.
Mary
27:44
Yeah, and I love just the way that you know, one of my favorite performers, justin Vivian Bond, talks about has a hashtag on Instagram Glamour's resistance. It is. And just about the revolutionary nature of unbridled self-expression.
Perle
28:05
That's what it is. That's what it is and and I would say to anyone who's on this journey, who's like I, really want to do this the self-expression everything has to start at home, and what I mean by home is in your body. So, before you're thinking about how you're going to look in the outside world, how are you going to look at home? Are you going to wait until a special occasion to eat on that China, or are you going to do like me and put your hot Cheetos on there? Okay, let's get this hot Cheeto Cheeto puff combo going right in this China bowl. Yes, yes. I'm eating for the fine China today.
28:46
I'm not, I'm the special occasion, right. So it's things like that. It starts at home. Physical home, the mental home, okay, the body. Don't put pressure on yourself to look a certain way to that. Still you seeking the validation. That's still you seeking the yes from outside forces.
29:06
Let's see what you do at home because, patriarchy, and all of that has nothing to do with how you treat yourself at home. You know, I know there are a lot of factors where people tell themselves why they can't do this work, and most of the time it's the man. That's the main reason and I say great, but what is the man doing at your house, where? You have where you have the key.
Mary
29:28
Mm, hmm, gorgeous. I had a foster dog recently who was six pounds and I named him Cornelius, and I would give him his water out of this vintage tea cup and it is so perfect. Yes, With so adorable. I'll include the video of that in the show notes of this page.
Perle
29:51
Yes, it's things like that. It's things like that they matter.
Mary
29:55
Yeah, yeah, because now that tea cup has Cornelius's energy all over it. And I put so much tenderness towards that tea cup. Now I love it.
Perle
30:06
Yes, yes, cornelius.
Mary
30:09
Cornelius. So that kind of brings us to the end of my questions, and I'm curious if there's anything else that you want to plug in or anything else that wants to be shared.
Perle
30:22
I want to say that the start of this journey for everyone. I want to invite the grace we are. We are in the infancy of our evolution and we don't judge babies for eating with their hands. We don't laugh at babies for trying to walk and falling, and that's the same kind of grace we're going to need to give ourselves. And also, anytime you nurture your body with food or water, that's a perfect opportunity to heal through seduction with a beautiful thought you can place one hand over your heart and let yourself feel your heartbeat and be romanced by your heartbeat and just trust that that heartbeat is proof that you're not done. So. That's that I want to plug grace. I want to plug grace. And, of course, I do have a free ebook, the healing through seduction ebook that gives some examples of the burlesque inspired rituals that I do. In its self-paced. It's a perfect gift that I'd love to offer to your listeners.
Mary
31:28
Thank you. Yeah, we'll definitely put that in the show notes, and I can attest that Pearl is an extremely generous facilitator and your emails are just always so ripe and rich with gifts and content and so, yes, so I am so grateful to have you as part of the Come To your Senses community and also faculty. Yes, pearl has been a teacher in my classes before and is teaching in our upcoming Coterie, so thank you so much for the gifts you bring to this world. So so grateful for you.
Perle
32:04
Thank you. I can't wait to have you in for my community as well. I have some ideas for 2024. Stay tuned, everybody.
What would happen if you reframed seduction as a powerful means to trust and honor your body and your desires? Take a riveting journey with today's brilliant guest, Perle Noire.
Perle's luminous career has graced the world's most esteemed stages, from the glamorous cabarets of Paris to the vibrant burlesque communities of New York City. Her magnetic performances have earned her prestigious titles and accolades, solidifying her status as one of the preeminent burlesque artists of her generation.
However, Perle's contributions extend far beyond the realm of entertainment. She is a healer through seduction. With her groundbreaking "Healing Through Seduction" methodology, she guides women on a transformative journey to self-love and empowerment. Her wisdom and teachings touch the lives of countless individuals, rekindling the flames of self-love and sensuality in those who embrace her work.
Perle Noire's legacy is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit and the ability to heal through the art of seduction. She remains a mentor, an advocate for body positivity, and an unwavering source of inspiration for those seeking to embrace their sensuality and rewrite their life narratives.
Her story is a celebration of performance, an affirmation of self-love, and an invitation to journey toward self-discovery through the transformative power of the art of burlesque.
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